Curse

Westofeden · May 30, 2007, 03:13 PM // 15:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ouchie

An Urgoz Run ????

Not a botters haven there. But maybe the bans come sometime down the road from the events that actually lead to the ban???

ie: a person uses or acts like a bot and it is investigated for a day or two then they get banned in a different place.

Are all the people being banned 55's?

He wasn't a 55. I know that he has one but thats not the only build he runs thats what gets me. He runs a lot of farming builds so apparently his "botting program" knows how to run all of them and in all of the areas he farms. I just think they should let his appeal it instead of saying "We know with out a shadow of a doubt that you were botting because we've looked it over. We won't let you explain yourself to us because that would be the rational thing to do."

Drucilla · May 30, 2007, 03:36 PM // 15:36

A guildie of mine was banned for botting, which I know he never has

He was farming Rilohn Refuge (a lot) using a R/N build. Now I understand A-Net wanting to get rid of as many bots as possible, but getting rid of regular players just because they "think" they're botting is a little unfair in my opinion.

This ban first ask questions never deal is a little odd to me.

unbound00 · May 30, 2007, 03:57 PM // 15:57

Throwing away your cd-key is pretty stupid if you ask me, after all that's what you paid for, you can download the client whereever,whenever you want for free. That's like throwing away your passport after crossing the border of a country, now you have no proof of your permission to have entered in the first place. No matter what the excuse, it's suspicious.

Westofeden · May 30, 2007, 04:53 PM // 16:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drucilla

A guildie of mine was banned for botting, which I know he never has

He was farming Rilohn Refuge (a lot) using a R/N build. Now I understand A-Net wanting to get rid of as many bots as possible, but getting rid of regular players just because they "think" they're botting is a little unfair in my opinion.

This ban first ask questions never deal is a little odd to me.

I think the "ban first ask questions never" deal needs to go. I just don't get why they wouldn't let him appeal it. Atleast look at his side of the story and stop sending automated emails.Who ever or what ever they have watching the "botters" needs to be fired or shutdown.

I could see them baning the Mo/W botters the ones that have no guild and a jibberish name but when they start to ban the real players who are just farming to save up for over priced items its stupid.

countesscorpula · May 30, 2007, 05:49 PM // 17:49

so, why isn't the investigator just sending a PM to the suspected bot?

Bots can't answer PMs, not coherently at least. If you are AFK, then your character shouldn't be moving anywhere. But if your character is actively engaged in something, and the investigator can see that you are actively engaged in something (loot is dropping - xp is rising) then they could PM you at that time. Just to ask you a few questions. Even if it was under the guise of conducting a player survey.
I'd sooner receive the occassional question from a GM about how I like the game, than have someone ban me because I'm using the Hot SPrings farm - I haven't yet, but my friend keeps telling me to try it (i generally don't like 55ing).

Kotetsu Rain · May 30, 2007, 06:01 PM // 18:01

If the ban the bot users account does that also mean that it's delted?

If not I think enough proof as any is for one of the in game GM's to hand out whatever those bots farmed int he masses to us players.

(Only half-joking)

truemyths · May 30, 2007, 06:05 PM // 18:05

Can't you just pull your CD key from the main menu?

HawkofStorms · May 30, 2007, 06:17 PM // 18:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by countesscorpula

so, why isn't the investigator just sending a PM to the suspected bot?

Bots can't answer PMs, not coherently at least. If you are AFK, then your character shouldn't be moving anywhere. But if your character is actively engaged in something, and the investigator can see that you are actively engaged in something (loot is dropping - xp is rising) then they could PM you at that time. Just to ask you a few questions. Even if it was under the guise of conducting a player survey.
I'd sooner receive the occassional question from a GM about how I like the game, than have someone ban me because I'm using the Hot SPrings farm - I haven't yet, but my friend keeps telling me to try it (i generally don't like 55ing).

Actually, bots can respond to PMs. Accoridng to a PC Gamer investigation, most bot "sweet shops" have human overseers who montier a dozen or more bots at once (makes sure the program runs smoothly, bots aren't stuck in a wall, etc).

Gaile Gray · May 30, 2007, 06:58 PM // 18:58

Hi,

Ironically I was just posting about this subject in another forum. I'll share that below--reduce, reuse, recycle!

-- but I wanted to address some of your specific issues. We have various ways in which bots are identified. One is observation, it's true. A few weekends ago I played the role of "observer," just to see how easy it was to identify bots, and let me tell you, when you watch the same characters spin inside a chest for two hours, you can be pretty sure that's not backed by a human player.

When you see the same odd pathing, or the "weird pathing parades" mentioned above, or when you see precise, predictable timing of appearance and actions over hours, you can make some level of assumption about "Is that real or is that a bot?"

We have a lot more people working on bots, on three continents. (Numbers mentioned in the discussion above are not even close.) Further, we can pull data on a suspected bot within a minute or two. We could run through a dozen names, and carefully review the data and make the daily/weekly/monthly numbers that we've publicized with ease. So don't worry, no one is getting an insta-ban for crossing a low threshold; they're getting blocked after several multiple reviews. (And HawkofStorms is right -- PMing is not a real good measure of bot-ness.)

Now, let me share a bit about bans: The number of people who are banned in error is miniscule. It may appear to be a "major problem" because those who are banned are vocal about it, sometimes understandably because the ban was in error, sometimes manipulatively, because they hope if they make a big enough fuss, they'll get unbanned. (Like the forum member a month or two ago who claimed his "store-purchased" account was closed unjustly, but who in fact was using a re-purchased PlayNC account that got closed in a charge-back scheme.) When you see protests, remember that what you often don't see after the "I was banned" thread is "I was unbanned" or "Ok, yes, I was botting and I (deservedly) lost my appeal," or "I said I was banned for botting, but in fact I was banned for scamming people or gold sales or something else that's disallowed, and I was trying to weasel out of it by joining the 'unjust ban' crowd."

The Support Team really does use a careful and conservative set of parameters for banning. They also take care to review all the data in cases where the ban may have been placed in error. That's not to say errors don't happen, but that's also not to say that an appeal is a "Get out of jail free card." Bans for clear use of bots should and will remain in place. However, the team is not inclined to ban for banning's sake, and they will give careful attention to issues with account actions and will discuss potential changes to the parameters if it appears that issues have arisen with how bots are identified or confirmed.

There may be some small risk in my saying all this, which is that it may encourage botters to appeal, or to think that if they only protest loudly enough "I didn't do it!" we'll say "Oh, ok, fine, you're cleared." We cannot do that! By the end of this month, the Support Teams will have banned about 8,000 bots. That is a good thing for the players and a good thing for the game economy and it's something that we will continue to do, always using care to ban only those who deserve it, and always showing consideration in setting the bar to avoid nabbing those who do not.

Ravious · May 30, 2007, 07:06 PM // 19:06

Thanks Gaile! Yeah I think a better "bar" to look for bots is the very methodical movements. Also good point about banned for other violations vs. botting. Another thing to up the number of banned bots is probably just to watch the IP. You find one, you might find 40 more.

I think it would be a neat statistic to know how much gold was sucked out of the economy for each bot-banning month. Of course, I would like any number of statistics that A.Net hasn't released (e.g., % of professions, number of elemental swords in play, average number of charr killed per day, etc.).

Rashkasha · May 30, 2007, 07:13 PM // 19:13

For a year now the bot city is Coperhammer Mines in Prophecies. You can always go there and see them. The strangest thing which people above said, is that isn't possible that Anet have employed working on looking boters. If they do that regular like steady job, you will never see any bot in Coperhammer, still as we speak there are few of them there even now, running around the left lantern and after a few minutes they go into map area. There are bigger issues here, because if the bot hunters working their job, they will probably cleansed the bot area. Just picture someone of the bot owners got themselves banned. What you think, that they will instantly go into first store wherever they are in the world, and immediately buy a fresh 50 copies of Guild Wars times 3 parts, and then install them on 50 machines for a matter of minutes. No! I don't think so. If there are bot police, they are doing a very lousy job!

People always reporting this things, I got a friend who thinks his reports will met the standards of "bot police". But the ANET never answered him. Although he is doing this, because his friend got banned with no particular reason, no spam, no cursing, no bot. Poor guy played eventually 40 hours or so, just getting to know the game, and they banned him. He didn't know what has happened and didn't bother to send any emails, he never played again.

So if they have some software for bot spotting, or even people looking into the matter and getting pay for that job, everyone there doing a lousy job, since innocent people getting banned.

MagmaRed · May 30, 2007, 07:38 PM // 19:38

I don't bot, and don't know how to anyway. I don't know anyone who does either. I don't even know anyone who was banned, for any reason. No, that said:

Certain areas are EASY to see bots, and know they are a bot. Granite Citadel for example. Mo/X, no dye, no guild, odd names, same pathing, etc. Yes, I have seen REAL people use this as a farming ground, but the bots are blatantly obvious to a casual person. If it is so obvious to someone like me, why does it continue so rampantly when Anet has more info available to show these are bots?

Why are there bots? To make money, and I do not mean GW gold. These are programs designed to make large amounts of GW gold, so that the owner can sell that GW gold for real life currency. Go to Great Temple of Balthazar, or Ascalon, or Kaineng, etc. and you can find a spammer telling you a website to buy GW gold for real money, and the price. So, a simple way for Anet to find a bot is to monitor trades made by an account. If a bot is GIVING all the gold it makes to other characters (either people who bought it, or a companies 'meet for trade' character) then there is an obvious reason for this.

Bots don't bother me personally, as they do not interfere with me playing the game. However, I understand the reasoning behind removing them, and agree with it. If Anet banned more accounts (justly, I'm not talking about people who don't deserve it)they make more money when these people buy another account to continue botting. If they don't buy more accounts to continue, then the botting ends, and they save money by removing people paid to find and ban the bots.

Firebaall · May 30, 2007, 07:53 PM // 19:53

I don't think the larger issue is the innocence or guilt of any one particular person. Or their appeal of the ban.

What would put the community at ease, is showing us that the support staff does infact give a response other than (what boils down to): "We know you did it, no appeal, deal with it!".

If a person is perm banned, they should be provided with this "evidence", that is so concrete that there is no chance of appeal. It's like executing somebody on death row, then finding out 20 years later that he didn't do the crime.

I would rather have a bot or two, or a thousand go free, than one innocent guy who has put in hours and hours into their account get hung out to dry.

Star Gazer · May 30, 2007, 08:12 PM // 20:12

amen firebaall. they should send screenshots to the email address linked to the account, have the subjected name Account Ban - Permanent, and provide screenshots or 'statistics' of what you do.

Age · May 30, 2007, 08:22 PM // 20:22

The best advice is if your local law enforcement being the Police has a computer forensics lab take your computer to check for bot programs and then get signed affidavit .Then you can get them to sent it to Anet and that will clear you instantly if not it sure will in a court of law which in where I live will cost 50 to 60 K and I won't be paying a dime.

If your law enforcement agency does not have a forensics computer person than take to a good computer store and get them to sign the affidavit swearing to it.That will clear you as well.I would have to say just because some ppl stay in one zone for some time doesn't mean they are guilty.It is sort of like someone standing that may look like they maybe a drug trafficker is selling drugs maybe they are just hanging out.

To Aera not all of them are Mo/Ws .It is to bad the datback file can't detect bot programs or have something in your GW folder than can.

Firebaall · May 30, 2007, 08:38 PM // 20:38

I would be very interested in hearing about some legal action somebody has taken against Anet for an unjust permanent ban.

Now Gaile has said above how many protest and profusely exclaim their "innocence", and I agree that is likely a problem in many cases. However...the burden of proof should be on Anet to provide documented evidence. A screen shot, or log of identical keystrokes every .4435 ms. You know? Some other response that "We know you're guilty", "No appeal".

The only recourse for somebody that has hundreds or thousands of hours "invested" in their account (and facing this senario), is contacting a lawyer and proceeding with legal action. That's insane, and shouldn't even be necessary.

What if this happens to me or you? What would you do? Aren't you concerned with the apathy of the guild wars community or Anet's support? It's like a nature show where a lion kills a zebra. Yea, there's a momment of panic in the herd, but sonner or later the "cows" go back to grazing (hey, I'm still here right?).

Disgusting.

[DE] · May 30, 2007, 09:05 PM // 21:05

As Gaile pointed out, a lot less real players are getting permabanned than you may think. You don't see threads starting up on the forums about how someone WASN'T banned, but instead you see threads about how people WERE banned. So naturally your mind would believe that there are tons of people getting unjustly banned just because of a thread or two.

However I do think that Anet asking to see your CD-key is a bit much. I know a lot of people who simply threw them away after using them; after all when would they be needed again? You activate your account once and that's it, no reason to keep it lying around. The fact that without it your appeal is useless (in the rare case that you do get permabanned) seems to be one of the worst ideas I've heard in a while.

ryanryanryan0310 · May 30, 2007, 09:05 PM // 21:05

The thing is alot of people who farm daily, farm the same time everyday. Lets say they farm at 5 p.m - 7 p.m everyday for two months. Is this bot like actions?

Also when you farm you basically don't stop and talk to people. You zone, kill chit and zone back, repeat over and over. So are we turning into mindless bots?

When farming the same loaction over and over before zoning, I usally type something in all chat. "I'm not a freaking bot" or "Stop watching young boys a-net". If you type something then hey i'm at my computer, so i'm not a bot.

ryanryanryan0310 · May 30, 2007, 09:54 PM // 21:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Age

The best advice is if your local law enforcement being the Police has a computer forensics lab take your computer to check for bot programs and then get signed affidavit .Then you can get them to sent it to Anet and that will clear you instantly if not it sure will in a court of law which in where I live will cost 50 to 60 K and I won't be paying a dime.

If your law enforcement agency does not have a forensics computer person than take to a good computer store and get them to sign the affidavit swearing to it.That will clear you as well.I would have to say just because some ppl stay in one zone for some time doesn't mean they are guilty.It is sort of like someone standing that may look like they maybe a drug trafficker is selling drugs maybe they are just hanging out.

To Aera not all of them are Mo/Ws .It is to bad the datback file can't detect bot programs or have something in your GW folder than can.

O.o

I think the police got better things to do.....

NekoZ · May 30, 2007, 09:59 PM // 21:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Phantom

As Gaile pointed out, a lot less real players are getting permabanned than you may think. You don't see threads starting up on the forums about how someone WASN'T banned, but instead you see threads about how people WERE banned. So naturally your mind would believe that there are tons of people getting unjustly banned just because of a thread or two.

There have been what, about 5 people mentioned in this thread already about friends/themselves being unjustly banned or so? Now 5 people may seem like a low number, but for a company such as ANet, that number should be TERRIBLY high. After they ban an account, they should log onto said account and snoop around even for a second. You see 6 level 20 chars with 15k armor or such, an appeal should be allowed.

It's rediculous in my opinion. Completely rediculous.